Thursday, December 18, 2008

He'aros on Daf 69

  1. How does the Gemara learn E"Y is higher than other lands? Yirmiya 23. But Rashi Devarim 1:25 seems to use that pasuk as a source that E"Y is higher (he says melamed, not mikan. Does that matter?). Why does Rashi bring a different pasuk?

    Similarly, Sanhedrin 42b leans that the beis haskila was outside beis din from the mekallel - Vayikra 24. But Rashi on Bamidbar 15:36 learns it from the mekoshesh.

    This also seems to be the remark of Rabi Akiva Eiger Kiddushin 41b that Rashi Vayikra 24:14 brings that pasuk as the source of shliach shel adam kemoso, but the Gemara Kiddushin 41b brings a different pasuk.

    Anyone have any ideas or more examples where Rashi on Chumash brings a pasuk other than the pasuk the Gemara brings?

  2. 69b Rashi s.v. Mesayei'a. It seems that when Ezra returned to E"Y, no gedolim remained in Bavel. Things did not remain that way, the leadership shifted to the talmidei chachamim in Bavel, and shas has many examples where students left E"Y to learn from the gedolim in Bavel (and see Rashi below 71a s.v. kotzim). In regard to proclaiming a leap year, it had to be done in E"Y unless the leaders in Bavel were much later, I think a gemara in Brachos says that when someone proclaimed a leap year in Bavel he was told "the cubs are now lions" that the talmidim in E"Y have developed into outstanding gedolim and they were qualified to rule on making a leap year.

    Does anyone know historically what caused these shifts?

  3. Rashi s.v. Ad Amod. No Urim V'Tumim in Second Mikdash. See Chidushei Hagram Vehagrid p 15, Rambam Beis Habechira 4:1. Rambam says there was no UvT , nor did they ask the Uvt. So why does the Rambam list they didn't ask - they wouldn't have received an answer anyway? Gram & Grid (The Rav) answered it was a din that they were not allowed to ask. I heard another answer from the Rav's nephew Rav Moshe Soloveichik. See Rambam Klei Hamikdash 10:11 how they Kohen would ask UvT. Rambam says "ruach hakodesh would envelop the kohein and he'd look at the choshen and see with maros hanevua..." Part of asking UvT was that the kohen would get some ruach hakodesh. So Rav Moshe explained that in Bayis Sheni even though we couldn't get UvT to answer us, maybe we would ask anyway, to get this ruach hakodesh. So the Rambam has to tell us you were not allowed to ask the UvT either.

  4. Rashi s.v. Bitrumah dioraissa - dagan tirosh & yitzhar - grain, vine and olive press. See Rambam Terumos 2:1 who says even fruit is obligated in Trumah dioraissa. See Kesef Mishna. Meiri Chulin 6 s.v. Maaser Yerek explains that the rishonim who argue on the rambam hold those drashos are asmachta.

    Side point - end of Kesef Mishna - Ravad argues on Rambam but there is no hasagah. Rabbi Dr. Haym Soloveitchik in "Rabad of Posquieres: A programmatic essay" lists some examples where we know Ravad argues on Rambam (like the cycles of zavah and nidda) but does not write a hasagah, because the Ravad was not primarily a bal hasagos. This can be another example.

4 comments:

The Talmid said...

Similarly, Sanhedrin 42b leans that the beis haskila was outside beis din from the mekallel - Vayikra 24. But Rashi on Bamidbar 15:36 learns it from the mekoshesh.

To answer this specific example, but not one that answers all similar cases - Baal Haturim Vayikra 24:10 says the mekallel and mekoshesh happened at the same time. So maybe there is a gzeiras hakasuv for both of them because that was the first time these halachos were implemented. (Not an exciting answer, but it works.)

A side point from the end of the Baal Haturim - a mechalel Shabbos befarhesia (publicly) is kofer b'ikar - I hope to spend a post on it in Mid-May, 2009.

The Talmid said...

This also seems to be the remark of Rabi Akiva Eiger Kiddushin 41b that Rashi Vayikra 24:14 brings that pasuk as the source of shliach shel adam kemoso, but the Gemara Kiddushin 41b brings a different pasuk.

Maybe we can answer this with a chakira about bracha: when someone says amein to a bracha, is it as if he said the bracha, or is it that the bracha was said on behalf of everyone who heard it. Therefore, Kiddushin 41 is telling us shlichus when someone (the one who brings the korban pesach) is the proxy for everyone in the group, but Rashi in Vayikra is saying that the tzibbur - but not one person in particular - puts this person to death.

Another (almost opposite) answer is based on Rav Yoshe Ber Soloveitchik, Festival of Freedom p. 150: one shlichus is proxy, which would mean that in Vayikra one pishes the guy to his death as a proxyt of the tzibur, and one shlichus is a merger of identity, so in Kiddushin 41 the entire group shechts this Korban Pesach when one of them brings it to the Beis Hamikdash.

Rav Chavel, Hadarom from late '60's/early '70's answered this stirah with a sifsei Chachamim, deatils to follow, but it is not muchrach.

The Talmid said...

Re the shift between Bavel or E"Y being the center of learning

1) Psachim (about how to bring knife when erev pesach is shabbos, Bnei Beseira did not remember) - Hillel came to E"Y from Bavel. at that time Bavel was greater. At that point, the center had been Bavel, but with Hillel, it seemed to shift to E"Y. (Achronim argue whether Hillel was greater than Bnei Beseirah or were Bnei Beseirah overly generous in relinquishing their position to Hillel)

2)see R' Yirmiyah's comment on Ksuvos 85a (also see Sanhedrin 24a. The reality is that things changed. Ritva, Toma 57 brings Tshuvos Harambam (see Margolios Hayam Sanhedrin 24 for source: Shu"t Harambam (Jerusalem 5694) siman 349; also in Igros Harambam (Maale Adumim, 5755, they claim it's from Rav Maimon, father of Rambam) that there were Shmados in the time of Rabbh& R' Yosef and Abaye & Rava (see Bava Metzia 85) but by the time of Rav Ashi the Bavli was of the highest quality.

The Talmid said...

Correction to comment - Bavel was NOT greater than E"Y in the time of Hillel. Hillel was born in Bavel (See Shabbos 30-31). He was a talmid of Shmaye and Avtalyon who lived in E"Y (they were Av Beis Din etc - see Chagiga 2:2 and my post about Srarah), and also Gemara Yoma that once the Kohen Gadol got mad on Yom Kippur because the assembled multitude followed Shmaye & Avtalyon and not the KG - they were in E"Y.